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Asshole indeed. But don't forget, these are assholes with a propensity for the sadistic. That may fly in midieval Europe, but not modern US. Not always, anyway, and it sucks when it does.

It is amazing that the western world is the only place that really decries these practices, and for the most part we do not practice the extremes that are feared. While in other parts of the world the most horrid acts are normal. We cry about sleep deprivation for detainees but not so much about the crazy shit that assholes in the middle east do to each other and would love to do to any of us.

Spurrier, this is crap. Regular people all over the world - most people everywhere - decry and condemn torture.

If you're going to make such wild generalizations about entire populations morality, maybe try providing a shred of evidence.

"Regular people" Who are they? Have you meet them and can you provide proof that they decry torture? And what is your definition of torture? Is denying someone sleep and denying them the sensation of time torture? Or is it removeing ones fingers from the joints until they pass out from lose of blood. What is cruel, inhumane and degradeing? You throw out a blanket statement concerning torture and expect all those people who may read your site to understand what YOUR definition of torture is.

What is your definition of torture and give me some examples so that I may better understand your point of view. I don't consider sleep, nutrition, light, or time deprivation to be forms or torture. They are very uncomfortable and may make someone answer the questions that they may be asked, but do you really think that in general we as a people, and when I refer to we I mean Americans which I hope we do consider ourselfes to be, really believe that it is okay to remove ones fingers or maim a person to extract information? If you do than you have no faith in your fellow citizens.

We concern ourselves with a hunger strike in Gitmo. If they have to strike do you really think we are torturing those detainees down in Cuba?

I really don't need to provide proof. You just need to read other sources besides those that are slanted toward your view. Have an open mind about the world and realize that many don't think as you do. That many are very backward in comparison to our upbringing.

It is always nice to associate ourselves with likeminded people. It is also our right. But htose who chose to challenge themselves with other not so likeminded views, those in direct opposition will find that they may have a broad sense of themselves. What sites to you go and look at to find that balence.

Yeah, it's been quite a bit more than just sleep deprivation, and with-holding meals that these sick GOP bastards have been practicing on others. Let us quote some recent Glen Beck, shall we?

BECK: And what would you -- like, what kind of tools would you use? What was your method and what worked the best?

"MITCH": Well, I had three or four that worked the best. I mean -- you've had your eyes dilated before?

BECK: Yeah.

"MITCH": Well, with simple masking tape or duct tape, you dilate the eyes, and they you use halogen lamps, and a person is placed in a rigid position where they cannot move. Their eyes are opened and the halogen lamps, you know, they're producing 40,000 watts. It's intense. And that breaks them down. High-pressure water -- I mean, you've heard the term "drinking from a fire hose." I wouldn't do that. That generally wouldn't extract what you want, and usually would drown somebody quickly. But you can use high-water pressure into one ear, and when that first ear drum is broken with, you know, 14 or 15 hundred pounds of water pressure going in, the don't -- they will talk before that second ear drum is broken.

[...]

BECK: Mitch, I've got to tell you I appreciate your service. I don't know your circumstances at all. I, you know, I have to assume that, because we wear the white hats that we're not doing this at the drop of a hat.

[...]

BECK: So in other words -- let me ask you this. So, you know, you always see, like, they'll come in with this, like, briefcase, and they'll open it up and there will be all these tools in there.

"MITCH": No.

BECK: That doesn't happen either?

"MITCH": No. No. I did know a contractor that did drilling on live teeth. You know, well teeth. And you've seen that before in different movies.

[...]

BECK: Did you ever accidentally kill somebody?

"MITCH": No. I made them wish they were dead. You know, when you have -- like I was saying the, the best -- my most successful use of any technique was high-pressure air. You just think of a small [high] velocity hose with 1,200 PSI [pounds per square inch] of air coming through it. I don't know if you've ever heard a hose with that much pressure go off, but once -- your ears immediately bleed. One ear blown completely out, and you don't have to do the other one.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200510070011

Drilling teeth, and puncturing ear drums is torture. That's not even counting stacking nude bodies up, and stressing them to death. It's not even just torture, but killing too!

It's funny that supposed religious moral uprights need to be blatantly shown they are being degenerate monstrous fools by an atheist, but such is the way when you open your eyes to things other than those ignorant leaders spout.

"God told me to kill, and kill I did. Many people have been killed, because God told me to."

Sheer madness.

Yes I would agree that the practices that you described are torture. But that was one man's statements and not the whole of our country. As for those GOP bastards, I think that not everyone in the gov't is a Republican. There might be some indys in there somewhere. I would venture to bet that many people that work for the government now may have been hired by our last president. Don't throw around blanket statements.

Right..

You mean blanket statements like these?

"It is amazing that the western world is the only place that really decries these practices..."
"...in other parts of the world the most horrid acts are normal..."
"...many are very backward in comparison to our upbringing..."

My point about torture is not about devolving arguments over specific acts and the specific circumstances under which they occur. This sounds a lot like moral relativism, the arch-nemisis of conservatives everywhere. I believe in human rights and human dignity. I'm not going to try to define it, but to fall back on a somewhat tired phrase, "I know it when I see it."

I also know it's absence when I see that.

My belief is that the vast majority of humanity are decent and not interested in torturing each other. Most of us can see our own humanity in the eyes of others, and the enlightened among us know better than to draw arbitrary lines of morality based on culture or national borders.

It strikes me that a need to strictly define which acts constitute torture and which don't is something only a torturer would feel. Most of us know what torture is because we know what dignity is.

[i]My point about torture is not about devolving arguments over specific acts and the specific circumstances under which they occur. This sounds a lot like moral relativism, the arch-nemisis of conservatives everywhere. I believe in human rights and human dignity. I'm not going to try to define it, but to fall back on a somewhat tired phrase, "I know it when I see it."[/i]

Anthony, this is precisely the problem at hand. In their arrogance, too many people blind themselves to the fact that their views on what is moral, are as relative as my own personal views of what is considered humane. It doesn't matter if you're a conservative who chooses to pick a book as your moral guide, you still choose that view, relative to the plethora of other moral views available, or even just possible.

The issue at hand Anthony is that while people like you, and I choose to not stand up for humane rights to the degree of passion religious thumpers are, you'll continue to have laws counter to gay marriage, and abortion rights.

Of course they're not wrong, and maybe between you, and I, we don't agree on everything, but at least we agree on some things. We agree there is a level of respect that should be given to all citizens despite their sexuality, despite their ideological views, unless those ideological views are bigoted, and work as a hindrance to social progress.

I'm trying HTML through a FireFox browser on this post, though I'm not sure it'll work.

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